I just got back on Thursday from just north of Atlanta, GA for the Vineyard Southeast Regional conference. It was an awesome time where so many good things happened. I rode up with one of the pastors, his wife and daughter, and the youth pastor. We drove up on Tuesday morning and got to the Atlanta Vineyard around 1:30 pm. I was able to stay at my pastor's son's home for the two nights we were there.
The speakers were Gary Best, the national director of the Vineyard in Canada, H.B. London of Focus on the Family, and Bert Waggoner, the national director of the AVC in the United States. I actually was able to meet both Gary Best and Bert Waggoner and even talked briefly with Waggoner about postmodernism, epistemology, and the emerging church. Those were some of the highlights. I also got a copy of John Wimber and Kevin Springer's Power Evangelism.
The pastor, his wife, and some members from the Vineyard in Inverness, Florida went up too and we had a good time fellowshipping with them. Also met some of the pastors from other Vineyards in the southeast.
One other highlight was when Gary Best encouraged us at the end of one of his talks about healing was to have everybody in the sanctuary who had never given words of knowledge about healing in such a big setting to stand up and...give a word of knowledge about healing. Well that included me and Gary went around the room asking us to share a word if we had received one. I shared that I thought someone had ligament damage in their left knee that should be prayed for. A girl stood up and myself and several others prayed for her and she got healed! The knee didn't hurt anymore and felt very good she said. Some might not look very highly on that but it was my first real experience at healing.
H.B. London's messages were about guarding your family life in mininstry. It really gets ugly when a minister lets himself get too busy ministering that he forgets his family and they pay the price.
Bert Waggoner's message was reaffirming what the Vineyard is all about...The Kingdom of God! He said something that I have said before - that dispensational theology and the Vineyard do not mix. Dispensationalism's view of the Kingdom is completely incompatible with what the Vineyard is all about. He stressed that some in the Vineyard needed to have a theological conversion.
He also spoke of how the Vineyard is a movement that stresses the Kingdom and not much else so there is room for diverse viewpoints on other issues. In other words, much to my chagrin, the Vineyard is not a reformed movement. On the other hand, it's not an arminian movement either, or an emergent movement or anything else. It's a Kingdom movement.
I also went to two church planting workshops. I've always been interested in it but it really got me thinking if I ever wanted to do that full time. I'm not sure yet.
Some points of concern though are in order. For example at the conference the book table was selling books by N.T. Wright. Wright is a champion of the New Perspective on Paul that I believe alters justification by faith and denies the imputation of the righteousness of Christ.
Also, some in the Vineyard are taking an emergent slant that makes me uncomfortable. Finally there was some laughter during one of the ministry times. Some time I'll blog on holy laughter.
Anyway, long story short, I really learned about some of the realities of ministry, more of what the Vineyard is all about, and more about how the Vineyard works as a whole movement. Praise God for what He did there.
Christian
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4 comments:
Hey Christian, this is Darrin from Charismatic and Reformed.
I really enjoy Bert, I used to attend his church in Sugarland.
You are right he is big on the kingdom.
It was his teachings and some books he gave me that helped me get out of my dispensational mindset.
Bert would probably place himself as Weslyan, that is his early influence, i.e. Nazarene, Foursquare, and Assembly of God. But he didn't make issue if someone was Weslyan or reformed or not.
Anyway, that is all I wanted to share.
Glad you enjoyed the conference.
Hi Christian,
Just found your blog while surfing the net. I've been exploring Reformed Theology for over a year now, and I find it very compelling. In another year I might be a whole-hog Calvinist. My church is a Vineyard in the Bay Area (http://www.godshack.com). Our small group just studied and practiced Gary Best's book: very good. My pastor told me the Vineyard and John Wimber have a lot of Reformed influences, while not being fully Reformed. I found this very interesting.
It is very frustrating when some reformed folk write off the more sensational (for lack of a better term) gifts of the Spirit. What Bible do they read? So it's refreshing to find blogs like yours. Thanks.
I also share your mistrust of N.T. Wright, and I hear his name a lot at the Vineyard. He himself believes in Justfication by Faith, but he doesn't consider Justfication by Faith as part of the Gospel. This is a problem.
Just rambling, but I find the Vineyard wholesale writing-off of Dispensationalism a bit alarming and extremist. Not that I'm a Disp'ist, but might there not be some truths in that system worth rescuing? Mind you, I fully buy into the Now/Not Yet Kingdom mentality. I suppose one problem with Disp'ism is that it's Cessationist? What Bible do they read?
Since I'm rambling, I'll go into the laughter topic. I'm not one to get into sensationalism and emotionalism, but I experienced the phenomenon in a small way, and it felt great! I understand that the enemy came in and made a big caricature of it, using blowhards to control crowds and give people what they want, but the place I experienced it in (an Episcopal church) was led by a very humble and Biblically-based man of God.
Darrin,
Yeah, I figured Waggoner probably leaned Arminian from his background. He was still a great speaker who kept the crowd into it.
John,
Thanks for your comments! It's always great to find others in the Vineyard reading my blog. I'm also glad to hear you're learning about Reformed Theology. It does take time to wrestle with all the issues involved. I didn't come into it overnight either.
The biggest reason the Vineyard has an issue with Dispensationalism is because of its view of the Kingdom. Dispensational Theology (DT) views the Kingdom as the sole property of Israel, not the Church. The cessationism is problematic too (although Calvary Chapel is a notable exception).
Theoretically, one could be a progressive dispensationalist (PD) and be in the Vineyard, but I think PD is inherently inconsistent in trying to hold together two mutually exclusive theologies at the same time.
You might consider New Covenant Theology as a better alternative to DT and PD. If you check my links to the right, you'll see links for In-Depth Studies, Solo Christo, and Sound of Grace. All are New Covenant Theology sites.
As for laughter and other manifestations I'll blog about those at a future date (perhaps I should do it soon).
Thanks again and keep reading.
-Christian
Coming to the discussion late. I am also Calvinist and Vineyard. And I am Dispensational. To wit, I am Progressive Dispensational. I am at least glad to see that you cite PD as a possibility, and I do agree that it is closer to typical Vineyard viewpoint than some other forms of Disp. In re John's comment, let me point out that it is not true that Dispensationalism is cessationist. There are certainly many cessationist Dispensationalits, but also a large number of Pentecostals are Dispensationalism. There is nothing, nothing inherent in Disp. that suggests or requires cessationism. Actually I believe continuation is in fact a better fit.
Christian, I hope I do not offend if I suggest it is odd for you to characterize PD as inconsistent and involving two mutually exclusive theologies. I mean, first you are in the Vineyard, which itself is a kind of golden mean between Charismatic and Cessationist Evangelical (or a hybrid, some would say). And then to be Reformed and THEN premil qualifies you as a theological hippogriff along with me.
Anyway, I find it perfectly consistent. I mean if it was good for Paul and Silas...
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